Did I just have a feminist moment?

[seal]

Twice during my life have I ventured out hunting for apartments to buy, and both times it has been with a male partner. The first time I was fairly young and my partner, albeit only 5 years older, still looked very adult compared to me. Also, this guy took an avid interest in property/apartment prices, qualities and details in Uppsala at that time, it became a great hobby of his, so suffice to say he had the voice and eye of a connoisseur when we arranged meetings with various real estate agents.

But I was still struck by the overwhelming rudeness with which I was treated by the agents. All of these agents were male, and even though I brought in a very healthy amount (almost half) of the investment money they never looked at me or talked to me when they presented the various condominiums to us. It was as if I had suddenly become a fundamentalist muslim's wife, with no money or will of my own.
Fascinated by this overwhelming rudeness I started to burst into conversations held between my academic looking and knowledgeable partner and the often pretty smarmy and insipid real estate agent (almost always a suit induced male in his late 20's or early 30's). My efforts to gain attention and a place in conversation gave results, but of various quality. Often the real estate guy started to shift his eyes a bit nervously between me and my partner, not knowing which foot to stand on, and my partner, having a very keen sense for other people's social discomfort, swiftly put him to rest by courteously and effectively asking him some detailed question, making him regain some expertise ground.

I don't think my partner even saw what was going on, he was too occupied with his apartment quest - which was my quest as well, something I was supposed to invest my family's money in, which is why I was so pissed at the level of effort I needed to put into it in order to even be heard by the agent.

I'm 100% certain that the agent had no clue that he was beeing a douche-bag.

But okay, I did look young, and my partner was more interested in the technical sides of the matter. But 5 years later when I went looking for an apartment once more, things could not be explained by such simple excuses.

This time I was the one looking serious, I was 3 years older than my new partner, I was wearing a suit jacket and my partner looked like a fairly non-intimidating (just like me he has a generic "kind" face) version of a metal rocker, complete with a Pantera t-shirt, a leather jacket and baggy jeans with lots of key chains hanging from their pockets and combat boots on his big feet. Yep, this looked like a guy with no money, and it was true, I had the money to invest in an apartment, I was the one buying.

Same bullshit. The fucking agents looked at the person with a dick. This time it was extra humiliating because

a) I was the one who had done all the research, made the calls and knew the numbers, my partner wasn't that interested, he was just there to give support.

b) My partner was behaving like a clear beta-male, timid and not taking up much room, and yet the agent still turned to him first. What the hell did this indicate that I looked like?

c) I had all the money, duh. He didn't even look like he owned a decent coffee pot.

So the song and dance went like this:

We arrived and the real estate agent greeted us and then immediately looked at Anders and asked something like Sooo, what do you have in mind? Worthy of note in this situation is that a) I had made the call and b) "you" in Swedish can be said with two different words, plural or singular, and the agent used the plural form (as in addressing both my partner and me) but only looked at one of us.
Anders then stammered something, glancing at me, signaling CLEARLY that he wasn't the boss of this. Here some very few of the brighter agents caught on to something and included me fairly early on into the game...but staggeringly many did not.
In most cases it took some real pissing in this territory on my behalf to become the main debater, at least 5-10 minutes of "proving myself" in a situation that should have been completely unconditioned.

I know for a fact that I am no ninny, I can stand my ground and I sound confident and intelligent on matters like these. Most women in my position probably recognize this from other situations, it's so blatant and yet subtle at the same time, and there are no real rules for how to handle it with dignity - other than pretend that we don't care, that's always a safe card. Just be polite and wait for the stupid tie to catch on that it is YOU holding the money and the knowledge.

On one specific occasion I "lost it", and frankly, I'm pretty glad that I did, because it is still one of the most vivid and educational moments I have in my life of how things are not equal yet.
I had a hard day at work, my partner came to the meeting after a hard day of skipping classes and playing computer games. He assumed the timid beta-position as the straight-haired guy he after all is. I was holding a bunch of real-estate related papers in a binder, had changed clothes to a suit and black skirt, kinda formal. The Real Estate agent was a profusely smarmy man in his early 50's who I had talked to on the phone, arranging the meeting.
The guy greeted us by shaking my boyfriend's hand and not mine, to me he just said "hi".
And then he started chatting with my partner, asking him a few questions about what "we had in mind".

I lost it.

I said:

If you don't start behaving differently in 2 minutes I'm going home. And believe me, I'm the one with all the money. I do know that you both have dicks, and if you want to discuss this fascinating factor with my boyfriend, then I don't want to disturb, but if you want to talk estate prices and details, then I'm the person with the papers and the bank account.

I'm happy that I snapped...but don't get me wrong, there were some quite horrific moments right after I'd said it. My poor partner looked truly unhappy and muttered "I should go, I don't know anything about the apartment business anyway", and the agent looked at me with...I kid you not, a vile vile form of ice cold hostility.
I won't lie and say that I was not intimidated by the look this man, old enough to be my father, had in his eyes for several seconds. As I said before, I'm a girl with a "nice" face which often has held appeal to older fatherly men. This was so different from what I was used to, but at least he SAW me.

In a few moments he had regained his posture and laughed like the shark he was and said: Okay then, let's start over. And he then addressed only me, completely disregarding poor Anders. I was by then unfortunately shaking and too distracted to really listen, so the meeting was fairly short and he definitely lost a client in me.

I did find a few nice real estate agents during these times, one of them a woman. And the agent I used to eventually sell my apartment was a very nice younger man - but then again, I was on my own when I sold it and set up my conditions.
There are a few other sales occasions where I have experienced a similar phenomena, for instance when I was out buying technical equipment with a guy, or various tools. But real estate was for some reason the biggest pissing territory I've encountered in Sweden.

And here is the beauty of it all:

This is one of those things that's supremely superior in the US, the dicking phenomena does exist, but it is frankly a lot weaker. Money talks in the US, and sales people rarely have steady set salaries, they usually work strictly on commission, and therefore really really can't afford to piss anyone off, not even a woman, just in case she has money or merely influence over the man at her side. So sales people in the US are often better than in Sweden, and by better I mean funnier, less smarmy, more polite. As a consumer you do encounter a fair share of bad sales people here as well, but these are more pitiful, powerless examples.

These moments when we feel that we stare into the eyes, not only of a horrible individual, but of the whole damn ice cold patriarchy, and see through their eyes how it sees us, these moments are truly educational. No wonder women become either chameleons - impersonating alpha-males, or genderless neutrons, or very very stereotypically feminine females.
I've had guy friends describe such moments as well, and these are even more interesting, often connected to them liking something "feminine" like pastel colors, or knitting, or some girly tv show and having the guts to show it, and thus becoming "fags".
But in no matter does the hate become more clear than when good guys become fathers of girls, there are some really touching pieces of text written by such men, where they are so desperate to change something as shifty and hard to grasp as air, and something as all-encompassing. They so desperately don't want their child to experience something they are on the other side of the fence of, an attitude these fathers share garden with and therefore know from their very spine, even if they are not partaking in it.

Comments

[wavebreaker.livejournal.com]

I had an experience like that a long time ago when I wanted to buy a video recorder and had asked my brother to come along. The salesman kept addressing my brother, who then decided to walk off, and then the salesman finally realised I was the one who was going to make the purchase.

I've never had any problems with estate agents, but then I always met them alone, so it was clear from the start that I was the person with the money.

My worst experience was as a scuba instructor. I've met several men who would not accept me as an instructor or accept that I knew what I was talking about just because I was a woman. At the start of every course, I had to make it very clear to all the students, especially the male students, that I was the instructor and that my male assistant was "just" the assistent, because otherwise they would assume the assistent was the instructor.

I love these stories

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

scuba instructor huh?

well, that is logical, after all, the ability to breath through a tube and dive/swim at the same time is intimately connected to having your reproduction organs on the outside of the body. Duh. ;)

[sashash.livejournal.com]

whoa, that's a hell of an entry. i'm sorry you have to put up with any of that. when i'm in that position, doing something businessy with my partner (business or girlfriend) -- even when i'm just out with friends -- i tend to deflect attention by looking to the person who's not talking. this alerts the person talking that there is, indeed, someone else there. it seems to help. a little.

and let me say this, cause it's been my experience, too. working in New Mexico, with such a culture of machismo and sidelined women, you find an alarming number of women out with their dates who don't talk. i jockeyed a counter at Hollywood Video here for most of a year, and it unsettled me every night; the boyfriends/husbands always ask, the girlfriends/wives always stand by, and even clearly addressing both of them, the women don't often respond. it can be hard to be an effective feminist, even as a male. even as an alpha male. where all the power supposedly defaults to.

[elenuial.livejournal.com]

Totally. I worked waiting tables for a while down in VA, and even something as simple as who to give the check to can become a situation for feminist weirdness. In a lot of cases, when I gave the check to the woman, she was just totally confused, even if she seemed to be the one with the power and the money. And a few got outright upset. It's just so... weird how accepting many women are of this subordinate position, probably without realizing it or knowing that there is an alternative way to interact.

good on you bro

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I love feminist alpha/beta males more than anything, because they don't have to have brains and insight, they choose to have it.

Colorado is not so bad, w. regards to such things, I've not encountered much bullshit like that here, but the US is big, and I have come to understand that different states are much alike different European countries sometimes.

[elenuial.livejournal.com]

Beautiful. Well-written. Forceful.

And, from my vantage point, you were completely right in your behavior towards that one man. The sort of lizard-brained worthlessness in his response is always shocking to encounter, however.

What really bothers me about issues like this, though, is how easy it is to ignore, how people go out of their way not to see it and to reinforce it.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

how easy it is to ignore, how people go out of their way not to see it and to reinforce it

oh god yes. I've reinforced it myself many times by just..blending in. It's the easiest way out, and sometimes you can get very very tired.

I have to have hope that it gets a little less powerful for each new generation, at least in fairly democratic welfare contries.
These things all happened to me in the 90's, so there are some years in between, and I've heard that there's been a bit of a boom of female real estate agents in just the last 6-7 years.

[toy-of-thought.livejournal.com]

nicely said. and i like the punctuation of the "bitchslap" at the end!

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

heh, I guess it easily becomes the default mood for such experiences as these!

[tuckova.livejournal.com]

Miss Manners says let them do the whole song and dance, waste their time, and then say, "Thanks, but I was looking for an agent/sales rep/whatever who isn't uncomfortable speaking to women." And leave. It is good if the man you are with is prepared for this and thus able to give a "Gotcha!" look to the seller, instead of looking baffled or pussywhipped, both of which take half of the fun out of it.

It is also probably worth it to mention to the periodic non-asshole how much their fairminded approach won them your business.

It doesn't necessarily matter who is paying more, who is more alpha, whatever. If two people are there, it's reasonable to assume they both have some say in the matter. And, based on that assumption, to treat them both with respect. Doing less is bad business and should be, as you say, bitchslapped as such.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

It doesn't necessarily matter who is paying more, who is more alpha, whatever. If two people are there, it's reasonable to assume they both have some say in the matter. And, based on that assumption, to treat them both with respect.

BINGO! I was shocked and overwhelmed at how poorly most agents understood such basic matters.

Your first battle plan is fabulous and today I'm would be experienced enough to apply it. Back then I actually did follow your second advice, on more than one occasion I thanked male and female agents alike, for simply being polite and respectful to both genders.

[browniegirl322.livejournal.com]

but tuckova, her tiny woman brain couldn't possibly make a big decision, duh!

[wolfchilde.livejournal.com]

If you want to see things such as this at its worst, try buying a car by yourself. Nothing gives me greater glee than to go car shopping with my mum. She used to be a car saleswoman and so knows exactly what is going on and when she is being played. Couple this with the fact that she is blond-haired and big-boobed, well let's just say I am not above laughing at people when their perceptions are shattered and she comes out with a better deal than they ever intended to give.

I have also experienced something similar to what you went through a few times when I have went to the fabric store for some sewing material and brought at gal friend along. Someday gender roles won't be so rigid, right?

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I really love your story about you and your mom car-shopping!

..and yeah, it's equally depressing when a) women practice this shit too, and b) when guys get that treatment.
Did you feel like you were just being neglected, or did you sense that they looked down on you for having a women-craftsy hobby as a guy?

fabric store

[sarcasma.livejournal.com]

See also the times I've accompanied my boyfriend clothing shopping. He's the one buying, we're in MEN'S clothing stores, clearly he's the one who needs size 40 pants, not me. The salespeople, even/especially the old dudes at the fancier places, would walk right past him and ask ME what I/we were looking for... or ignore him browsing the racks and say to me standing by, "Did you want something in a pinstripe?" or whatever. I'm sure they knew he was the one with the money, but it seemed like the dual assumption was that a) as a male, he can't even pick out pants without gentle motherly guidance from his life partner; and b) as a female, I probably spend a lot of time worrying my little head over matters of fashion and not much else. Even though I was the one being deferred to, it still felt oddly belittling.

At one place I actually said "I have no idea, he's the one shopping" and "The clothes are for him, you could try asking him" about ten times before huffing out and leaving them to it. I don't know if they deigned to speak to him after I left or if they perhaps had a cardboard cutout lady they used as an intermediary...?

[birds-hum.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this post, hon. Well-told. Too familiar.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Don't you just wish the bullshit could end?

If the trade-off is having doors held up for you or getting flowers'n shit, than I can totally pass. Never had anyone do/give such stuff for me anyway.

[lizardek.livejournal.com]

*bitchslap* hahahaha!

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

it's mostly talk with no bite though, I'm generally pretty weak in the bitchslapping-branch of the Olympics...

[emerald14.livejournal.com]

I love you! And "The dicking phenomenon" will be now the title of my PhD work. If I was ever to do one ;)

bitch please

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

You owe it to the world and all of us to write a PhD work in something, how dare you deprive us of your brraaaiin...

[jlms.livejournal.com]

Well said.

I can't say I agree about this part, though:
Money talks in the US, and sales people rarely have steady set salaries, they usually work strictly on commission, and therefore really really can't afford to piss anyone off, not even a woman, just in case she has money or merely influence over the man at her side. So sales people in the US are often better than in Sweden, and by better I mean funnier, less smarmy, more polite. As a consumer you do encounter a fair share of bad sales people here as well, but these are more pitiful, powerless examples.

I returned from the US two days ago, and yesterday as I walked into a shop in Uppsala I was so relieved at being allowed to browse the shop without a sales assistant coming up and asking me how I was today and could s/he help me at all?? I know this is a personality thing on my part, but in California it really bugged me that they kept doing that. Not in all shops, but it was the rule rather than the exception. I don't mind them saying "Hello" to acknowledge that they have seen me, but I prefer that they don't start talking to me without further provocation (especially when they say "How are you today?" - am I suppose to answer that or not? Am I supposed to ask them the same thing back? Not knowing the social code is stressful and I don't like extra stress. Besides, how I'm doing is none of their business and they are obviously not acually interested in it. So it is a combination of empty platitude and intrusiveness.) Johan commented on the fact that I hadn't done much shopping in San Francisco, and I think that was a major reason. Unless I was looking for something very specific, the over-friendly shop people drove me out of the stores, and made me feel guilty about not buying anything. And I suspect that latter effect is what they are going for, they want to shame you into purchasing when they are being all chummy.

Again, this is literally just me. Other people in my choir did not feel the same way about it. I guess it's partly not being used to it and getting stressed out about not knowing how to respond, and that might go away if I lived somewhere where it was more common.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the post with my personal rant, but I did want to mention the friendliness thing really can be perceived in different ways. In most ways, I really loved being in the Bay area :-)

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

No hijacking, I know exactly how you feel!

I used to feel the same way, so I don't think it's just you, I think it is because we are children of the Swedish system of business! :)

First of all: When asked "how are you?" respond: "just fine", by not asking back you are indicating that the conversation is over. If they ask: "can I help you with anything", just answer: "no thanks, I'm just browsing" (unless you really want help of course)

The one thing you are probably a little wrong about is that the shop personnel wants to make you feel guilty about not buying, I was projecting my own uncomfortable feelings like that as well in the beginning, but truth is that all store personnel are instructed to say these things, it is often part of their firmly defined job description.

You get used to it, it's just weird and hard for a while.

Here is what I like about America compared to Sweden when it comes to business. I have experienced lesser of the "female bullshit" treatment when shopping for technical stuff, even with a male next to me I get the same level of respect more often than not, because salespeople can not afford to piss anyone off. While in Sweden, unfortunately with the more secure wage-system, comes often more rudeness. Sales people who are assholes in Sweden, can sometimes show it without taking any blame, while in the US...whoosh, you're out on your ass if you're bad to the customers. (every stereotype has exceptions of course)

The same kind of effect seems applicable when you actually *do* need help in the US, on a general rule customer service comes faster and is more eagerly given in the US, while in Sweden it is sometimes even up to mere chance or luck if you are treated as a favored client.

I would still prefer a middle road of course... :)
BOTH secure wages for sellers AND good manners!

[tommdroid.livejournal.com]

I sooooo know what you're saying!!

And I think I'm as far as one can possibly be from small and blond and that whole fragile feminine thing, despite my appearance I do have several similar experiences.

Yuck!!

It got better with age though, I would NEVER want to re-live 19 - 29 again. But still I wear my engineers ring to work, always, as to hint I'm not the secretary making the coffee.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I've been the secretary making the coffee!
sometimes I was treated as if I was retarded, or a servant. But truth was, that professor would not know where his own ass was, if it wasn't for the secretary.

I get bummed when traditionally "female" professions get looked down upon, as well... :(

Today's secretaries often need to know several languages, many computer programs, perfect grammar and have super-hero administrative skills as well as better social skills than many upper level positions.

[piratejenny1.livejournal.com]

And this in the land of Equality (Sweden) yeah, sure...

GREAT to see you in here!

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

It is often less equal than we think, sadly!

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry ...

I just have to say that I can clearly envision the "snap-scene" as well as you sniping the "two-gentlemen talk" ...

snigger ...

ROFL

So ... we have to choose between the Capital or the Patriarcate ... ;-)

I think I find myself a cave somewhere ...

Dusty the Rat

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Hi Dusty..I think that by obtaining capital the patriarch listens, but without it it listens less, it is one of their foundation pillars so to speak. Why I looked like I had less capital is a mystery to me! :)

The US way has its clear flaws..but money talks..or even the slightest chance of money, or a law-suit.

I don't want that to become the Swedish way, but Sweden better shape up, because there is a lot lacking there.